I Ching books?

[SAMURAI36]

PEACE SUBLTLE:

I just noticed Sam's comment...
I trained in the only internal art directly "based" on the I Ching under a very very tradition taoist master.

I strongly disagree with your comment.

Is all of the above directed at me? If so, could you clarify which comment that you disagreed with?

I believe after studying the arts that it is just as likely, if not more that the I Ching was derived from internal and alchemical practices, and not vice versa.

I think you're looking at this as one of those "CHICKEN OR THE EGG" scenarios.....

It's like saying METU NETER didn't x-sist prior to the KEMETIANS knowing about it, or that ISLAM didn't x-sist prior to the PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

The symbols or HEXES themselves of I-CHING are based on mathematical algorithms. Therefore the HEXES are simply perceptionary recognizable patterns, that point to the Eternal phenom of the I-CHING itself.

Also please remember what I said about what the word "I-CHING" itself means. ......That has nothing to do with the origin of martial arts--in fact, it supercedes it, in both origin and premise.

PEACE

[Subtle Energies]

I only strongly disagreed with the comment that made it sound like I Ching could not have been derived from the arts at all. Actually, I only said this was AS LIKELY as what you said...so maybe the word disagree made my point seem a bit stronger than what I meant too.

Also, I know it was before martial arts but I actually said taoist arts including thei nternal alchemies. If you read on these internal alchemies you see the same elements being used. I think alot of these came about from sensations they equated with these elements.

[Subtle Energies]

It's like saying METU NETER didn't x-sist prior to the KEMETIANS knowing about it, or that ISLAM didn't x-sist prior to the PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

I believe this analogy is a bit off. I did not say Taoist philosophy of the I Ching did not exist prior....I said the I CHING, as an actuall book didn't....this would be equated to me saying The Koran did not exist before Muhammed ....not Islam...

[SAMURAI36]

Subtle said:

It's like saying METU NETER didn't x-sist prior to the KEMETIANS knowing about it, or that ISLAM didn't x-sist prior to the PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

I believe this analogy is a bit off. I did not say Taoist philosophy of the I Ching did not exist prior....I said the I CHING, as an actuall book didn't....this would be equated to me saying The Koran did not exist before Muhammed ....not Islam...

True indeed, I bear witness to what you are saying here.

HOTEP.

[Subtle Energies]

this is an interesting bit of information on the Pakua I had never heard before from
www.zorrapredictions.com/ magical/index_magic.htm:






There have been many texts, exposés and studies done to search for the roots of the magical Pakua. In Asia, especially among the Chinese community, the Pakua is a familiar sign and an increasingly used symbol of protection, magical powers and directional symbol for the ever present search for good luck.



Now it would be a great shock and revelation to all to be confronted by the fact that the origin of the very essence of the Chinese symbol of the I Ching and the Feng Shui originated outside of China.

I am not the sole person to recognise this astounding fact but many have delved into the texts of historic findings to come out with this realisation.




History

The cradle of human civilisation and when cultures are recorded in findings in Mesopotamia (3000-2300 BC) although the recorded history of Chinese civilisation went as far back as 2943 BC, evidence of Chinese civilisation by archaeological findings appears quite suddenly around China around 1400 BC.

It is believed that the Chinese left Mesopotamia to escape the perverted idolitary worship of Babylon. The Chinese held fast to their worship of the One True God "Shang Ti" and they migrated west from the Middle East to the lands now called China. The ancient Chinese, like the Ancient Hebrews had a monotheistic religion and worshipped Shang-Ti or the Supreme God till 500 BC.

The Chinese have the longest recorded historical continuity dating back to 2943 BC. They were believed to have arrived in China from Akkadia in Mesopotamia travelling through Khotan in Central Asia.

Many Chinese ideograms have descriptions and describe many Middle-East legends like the Great Flood, Noah and the Tower of Babel. In fact, the Chinese word for "BOAT" contains sub-characters reflecting the 8 persons of Noah's family in the ark-boat. Whenever the Ark Boat of Noah was described, it was always described as having eight-sides like the Pak Kua.




The Chinese Dragon Boat Festival and the tradition of building a tower of Buns during the festival preserves till today the legend of the Tower of Babel. It is in memory of how "Golden Leung" Emperor Huang-Ti acted against the Serpent Chih to release water to the people.

The Chinese knew who Adam was and who Noah was as well and mentioned them prominently in Ancient Chinese History as the 1st world Emperor Fu-Hsi who taught them the rudiments of civilised existence like hunting and planting and Noah the great astrologer who was named Shen-Nung who revealed the passing of time and the changing of seasons. He invented the plough, established markets and cultivated 5 grains.

These significant cultural fusion is the reason why there is so many parallels and discoveries of similarities between the Hebrews ancient book of magic the "Kalalah" and the Taoist books of Divination the "I-Ching"

The Chinese, like the Hebrews, worshipped a monotheistic, imageless Supreme God Shang-Ti. There is historical evidence to support this. But in 500 BC, due to politics, polytheism and deviant teachings were introduced so as to better control the people of China.





The Pakua

Fu Shi is said to be Adam. He was the first of the Five Emperors of the legendary period known as the "Pao Hsi Kung". The founder of civilised China, he taught the people to hunt, fish, make fire and to spin silk. From the markings on the back of the tortoise, he constructed the "Eight Diagrams" or the series of lines. It was a system of philosophy or the basis of the form on which society is built. It is known as the "Canon of Changes". This is the Pakua.

Till today, 5000 years from the period when Fu Hsi formulated his concept of the ideals code of conduct for a harmonious society, his words and rules are still valid. No doubt they were refined and fine-tuned by philosophers and sages like King Wen and Confucious, his structure is what a model Society should be based upon - VALUES and a CONSCIENCE inscribed as a series of trigrams in a Pakua, these ancient words of metaphysical wisdom is there for you to tap from whenever you are lost and need to find the path to happiness.

Although the Pakua is normally hung outside a house to ward off or deflect evil, wearing it on one's body, enhanced by a compatible gemstone can be y our lucky charm and protection against negative attitudes. Seek the magical help of this ancient talisman to guide you to happiness.





To find out more about this ancient Talisman, E-Mail me at [e-mail] or call me at 012 - 429 1199 or 016 - 3362841

[Healthy Merking]

PEACE

the i ching has driven many people insane

('many people' may include me)

but it can be loads of fun

PEACE

[Subtle Energies]

No one can build with me on the yin and yang combinations of the hexagrams?

[Healthy Merking]

subtleenergies said:

No one can build with me on the yin and yang combinations of the hexagrams?

where shall we begin?

PEACE

[Subtle Energies]

Well, at the beginning since I don't know much about it.

Ideally, I would like to be able to eventually draw some relationship between the energies of my real life situations and the combinations in the I Ching hexagrams. Is that possible?

Intuitively this is the type of understanding I have come to. Take the WATER symbol which is two yin lines enclosing a solid yang line. Would I be right in saying that this symbolizes water's outward softness and it subtle strength in the yang line?

Further, would it be right to say that there a real life situations which possess the same type of energy? And if so can they be related to this hexagram?

[Healthy Merking]

subtleenergies said:

Well, at the beginning since I don't know much about it.

Ideally, I would like to be able to eventually draw some relationship between the energies of my real life situations and the combinations in the I Ching hexagrams. Is that possible?

Intuitively this is the type of understanding I have come to. Take the WATER symbol which is two yin lines enclosing a solid yang line. Would I be right in saying that this symbolizes water's outward softness and it subtle strength in the yang line?

Further, would it be right to say that there a real life situations which possess the same type of energy? And if so can they be related to this hexagram?

PEACE

it is most definitely possible to relate real life situations to the i ching

in fact
as you become more familiar with it
it becomes difficult not to

starting from the basics
1. know that the i ching is a form of a written language
2. the i ching is based on OBSERVATIONS made by MAN

there is no mystery
there is no magic

any use of the i ching as an oracle is energy that YOU YOURSELF give the i ching

from my experience
i have found 'consulting' the i ching to be a cop out for those too lazy to 'study' the i ching
(like those who pray to god only when they are up shit creek)

next: how to read the i ching
the best way to bend your brain when looking at the i ching is to visualize the lines as BEAMS OF LIGHT or ENERGY

instead of seeing drawn lines
imagine SLITS cut into the page you are looking at

thus
--- (yang) would represent ONE straight beam of light
- - (yin) this would represent TWO (or more) beams of light coming together

Let’s think of this as the Tao as the inexhaustible source of unmodified energy – the Supreme Being in its dormant, inactive state. When consciousness is modified, in a process called creation, it crystallizes itself into physical matter and lives in this matter as the driving force behind its function.

CIVILISON wrote the above in a different thread which points out basically how yin/yang states are composed of the same energy - this is important to keep in mind
but it can also be the most difficult to understand

as for how this all pertains to the trigrams
it is helpful to get as many interpretations of the trigrams as possible

the FIRE trigram is also the trigram of BIRTH and JOY
envision (from the bottom up)
yang --- : that which is active
yin - - : being restricted
yang --- : but still coming out the other side

envision
--- : heat
- - : applied to matter
--- : causing a flame

envision
--- : a child in the womb
- - : being held back by the woman's snatch
--- : and busting thru to be born

envision
--- : the i ching
- - : encountering the mental preconceptions in your head
--- : emerging with understanding after enuf study


as for the WATER trigram - also the trigram of FEAR and PASSION/DANGER

basically i have found the best way to envision this trigram is to imagine any living thing in a jar or a cage
or picture yourself in jail

envision (again from the bottom up)
- - : we begin with an enclosure
--- : something active or alive in the middle
- - : confined yet again at the top

envision
- - : he who is dependent on society
--- : life energy
- - : confined by social rules

same kinds of analogies can be applied to all of the trigrams

if this any of this is unclear

please let a brother know

happy studying (it isnt easy - i've been at it for almost 3 years now and still learning)

PEACE

(oh yeah
and dont get trigrams (3 lines) and hexagrams (6 lines) mixed up)