AIKIDO

[CIVILISON]

PEACE,

THE ART OF PEACE

For those who are familiar with this science, what is your perspective?

I know SHAH and O practice martial arts, add on brethrens.

I find the theoretical aspect of it absolutely mesmerizing!

I want to get into a martial art and Aikido seems like a good choice for a beginner.

Add on!

PEACE

[Os3y3ris]

JIIIIUUUUU-JIIIIITSUUUUUUUU

Now that thats out of the way, aikido quality and effectivity varies. The general method of training is to throw people all day with little to no resistance and in fact COOPERATION. This is detrimental to one's training as real situations don't involve cooperation, but instead full resistance. That being the case, you may want to limit your choices to aikido schools that DO spar, and despite what people say, those do exist. Good luck finding one. Now, on a strictly technical level, the art is incomplete, but whats there actually works as far as I know. If you're good enough to pull it off anyways. Check out Jason Delucias' material on the subject as well as Angry White Pajamas to hear about the real hardcore aikido.

[SAMURAI36]

I think the reasonings behind why CIVIL would choose AIKIDO above other arts, speaks to why this art would fit him nearly perfectly.

O, for the years that I've known you, I've been trying to get you to see the spiritual value behind martial arts; that the focus should be on the "ART" instead of the "MARTIAL".

We've seen by way of the White man and the western world, what "MARIALITY" gets us: death, oppression, etc.

What does the ARTISTIC aspect get us?

Principles of Aikido
True Victory is Victory Over Oneself
One must first learn to control oneself before attempting to harmonize and control others. Without a good balance and control of oneself, one can neither avoid an attack nor apply an effective technique on others. It is through self-control that one can learn to enjoy a harmonious way of life.

Principle of Oneness
In order to harmonize with the laws of nature, we must first learn to develop and maintain the right attitude of training. We must always keep the attitude of becoming one with every situation. This is an attitude of respect for all things at all times. Regardless of the situation, friend or foe, one must always be ready to harmonize. The right attitude greatly affects the efficiency of the action. It is not how strong, but rather how correct you are that counts. This concept of oneness will make it possible for anyone regardless of age or sex to perform the arts efficiently.

Principle of Circular Motion
The spiritual circle is the foundation of all Aikido techniques. Circular movement synthesizes everything and can freely resolve all problems. The innermost study of the circular motion is to develop new techniques from the center of the circle. Aikido techniques are combinations of circular movements. Regardless of the ways the opponent attacks, linear or angular, a circular motion centered at your lower abdomen, hara, will naturally blend with the attack so that you can execute a controlling art with efficiency. The centripetal force will draw the opponent into your range of effectiveness so that the centrifugal force can eject him effectively. All circular motions are preceded by a spiritual circle. The spiritual circle is the circle drawn within one's mind before the execution of the physical circle.

Range of Effectiveness
The best way to defend yourself against an attack is to get out of the opponent's range of effectiveness. You can step off the line of force, move out of the opponent's radius of reach or step inside of the circle of attack. However, in order to be able to control an attacker, one must remain well within his/her own range of effectiveness at the same time he/she is moving out of the attacker's range of effectiveness. Barely reaching the attacker will not give the defender full advantage for he/she will be over extended and off balance. Being too close to the attacker could also hinder one's effectiveness. Depending on the situation, one must learn to realize the range of effectiveness of that moment.

Principle of Ki
Ki is the force behind all things. Everything in the universe has Ki. Ki is the essence of our world. It is the basis of all matter, every phenomenon, emotion, sense, direction, will, consciousness and conscience. Ki is also an energy which can be very useful in our daily lives when used properly. Ki is our life force which keeps us alive. Ki is the binding force of our mind and body. We can be very efficient if we unify our mind and body. However, it is rather difficult to maintain the oneness of mind and body throughout our daily lives without something to bind them together. As electricity keeps the computer and the robot working together, Ki keeps the mind and the body working in oneness.

Being that CIVIL's current goals in life are spiritual awareness, I think AIKIDO would be ideal for him.

When I return to a full status of living, I intend to re-enter the martial arts world, opting to first further my MUAY THAI training.

However, I've always believed that an aggressive art should be complemented with a "passive" art.

It is ironic that AIKIDO is mentioned, because that was the style that I was considering.

Either that, or TAI-CHI CHUAN. ;D

PEACE

[Os3y3ris]

Being that CIVIL's current goals in life are spiritual awareness, I think AIKIDO would be ideal for him.

Aikido has nothing to do with spiritual awareness. True spiritual study tends to leave out the part about snapping arms and wrists and shit. I know what you think of Christianity, but bear with me a sec. If I go to church, and I'm being instructed in maintaining proper spirituality through abstaining from various acts, thoughts, etc, how exactly would knowledge on breaking arms come in handy? It wouldn't. While I can think of plenty spiritual texts that speak on violence, most tend to come without comprehensive kung fu lessons.
So lets drop that fairly pretentious peripheral element and cut to the chase. You can engage in spiritual study in your free time FOR FREE. People will teach you that stuff at no cost at all. Martial arts costs instruction costs anywhere between 60 and 120 dollars a month. If you want to learn how to break wrists, snap arms, and fuck people up, which is what aikido is about (read Angry White Pajamas), you want the best training you can get, whether thats in aikido or something else. This is not just so that you can get your money's worth, but because if you ever need to use the stuff, you might just die if you fuck up. So make your shit is on point. If you wander into the wrong redneck bar and shit jumps off, your spiritual awareness may increase VERY rapidly if you don't perform properly. Some aikido works, some doesn't. Be sure to get the good shit. I'd choose a different martial art myself though and go with something more combative. I personally show my enemies love by making sure to put them to sleep as opposed to crushing their throats. Or I just dont fight them in the first place. The whole peaceful thing has no place in a fight really.

However, I've always believed that an aggressive art should be complemented with a "passive" art.

Doesn't get much more passive than BJJ.

[SAMURAI36]

PEACE O:

Doesn't get much more passive than BJJ.

Surely you jest, yes?

Brazilian Jui-Jitsu is one of the most brutal arts on the face of the planet.

Not to mention it is nearly devoid of any spiritual awareness.

Speaking of which:

Aikido has nothing to do with spiritual awareness.

Not only did you not read the exerpts I posted above (which came from an AIKIDO site, btw), but this is showing your lack of spiritual knowledge of this art, and of ARTS (notice also, what I'd stated about "MARTIAL ARTS" earlier) in general.

True spiritual study tends to leave out the part about snapping arms and wrists and shit.

Are you truly under the impression that this is ALL that AIKIDO (or any internal art, for that matter) is about?

Why does the practice of any art have to result in broken body parts?

Wasn't there a wise martial artist from way back, that stated that "the greatest fights are those which are never fought"?

I'm sure you don't agree with that philosophy, but there are those that do, especially within traditional AIKIDO.

I know what you think of Christianity, but bear with me a sec. If I go to church, and I'm being instructed in maintaining proper spirituality through abstaining from various acts, thoughts, etc, how exactly would knowledge on breaking arms come in handy? It wouldn't.

This is both the best and worst of examples.

Considering that Christianity is THE most violent religion in this history of man, in both practice and theology, then it merely exemplifies the very opposite of what Martial Arts attempts to teach the practicioner.

No where within ANY art, is it stated that just because you learn this technique, that you MUST use it, or find instances where it must be used.

In fact, most Sensei's, if they have half a brain, will teach their students to look for peaceful means of resolving conflicts.

That is the spiritual aspect of the art.

The irony of this, is the fact that KUNG-FU is a spiritual lesson exemplified.

Howver, I think it is important to state, that what you are talking about is RELIGION, not Spirituality.

I asked you in the past, why TKD had I-CHING iconograms serving as symbology for the art.......I don't think that you really had an answer, but I've never known you to have actually done the knowledge on I-CHING.

I've said it before, and I think it needs to be re-iterated:

The historical foundation of most (if not all) martial arts is SPIRITUALITY.

The latter created the former, and the former serves to demonstrate the latter.

Monks in Asia LOTUS FIST, while dancing on I-CHING hexes in the temples.

Surely you don't believe that this is merely happenstance?

I've gotta tell you, O.......Your refusal to acknowledge the ethereal holds you back, not only in your martial arts endeavors, but in life as a whole.

But you gotta do you.

You can engage in spiritual study in your free time FOR FREE. People will teach you that stuff at no cost at all.

Given the fact that you seem to be confusing Spirituality with Religion, please show and prove where you can in fact learn "that stuff" (your irreverence is appauling) in this society without cost.

You mentioned Christianity (for the life of me, though, I'm not sure why; why wouldn't Buddhism have been a better example?); try going to a Church for more than a month, and see if you don't get approached by the clergy, for the urging of starting to "pay tithes".

So does Church--at least, that's about how much my Father pays at his

Besides, there are people who are willing to train students for next to nothing, both here and abroad. There are traveling monks who pick people out, to keep the Spirit (<==emphasis) of their art alive, asking that the only payment be that they pass it on.

If you want to learn how to break wrists, snap arms, and fuck people up, which is what aikido is about

#1) I doubt that's what CIVIL wants from this or any art. And the learning of such techniques are purely subsequent to his primary goals.

And elephant is THE strongest land creature. Just because it's strong, doesn't mean that it constantly displays its strength, just because it can. Most of the time, it's a peaceful, playful creature.

#2) That's not what Traditional Aikido practicioners have to say about their own art and style:

www.seidokan.org/history.htm

This is, BTW, where I got that exerpt about the PRINCIPLES OF AIKIDO from.

(read Angry White Pajamas)

It's really sad that you would opt to take the word of a Savage about his myopic perspectives about a culture that he didn't (nor couldn't) understand, over those civilized people who created the culture to begin with.

Let's read a bit about this book:

From Amazon:

So it may not be the most accurate description of the Japanese culture, so what? Angry White Pyjamas is an excellent account of one person's somewhat extreme experience of Japan.


The author of the book, Robert Twigger, an awarded poet from England goes to Japan as means of escaping the boring corporate reality. In Japan he hopes to find that his life means something. He begins his experience as an Engish teacher in Japan. Shortly afterwards, his job is reduced to a part-time, one day per week position. Poor and disilusioned, living in a cheap apartment with a couple of other random gajins, he finally decides to discover the value of self by signing up for a course in martial arts.


Once a member of a dojo, he realizes that he wants to push himself to the extreme limit of his mental and physical ability. As a result, he signs up for the super-ultra-tough course, usually taken by candidates for the Tokyo riot police.


Insanity ensues as he learns martial arts every day for almost 11 months amongst pain, sweat, complaining of fellow students, and constant cultural faux pas.

Personally, I'm not sure how accurate is Twigger's descriptionon of the fighting, the food, and the cultural differences, but one must admit that whatever he writes, it is written in the most excellent style. Twigger keeps an eye out for details in the Japanese lifestyles and describes them from the point of view of an overly enthusiastic yet naive foreigner.

The account of the training keeps the reader constantly wondering whether Twigger will be able to finish the course. After all, the pain, the unfriendliness, and seemintly little payback seem overwhelming.


This book is not for martial arts fans nor fans of the Japanese culture. I am only slightly interested in these topics, however, I found the book very engaging. It may not be accurate, but it is an excellent piece of literature, clever, and highly entertaining.

Taking note to the underscored portions, this is the book that you would recommend to someone with spiritual aspirations??

Even the title alone (when is the last time you've seen a traditional martial artist exhibit "anger"? From what I've learned, the goal is to suppress that emotion) suggests a tom-foolery on the part of the writer.

If you wander into the wrong redneck bar and shit jumps off, your spiritual awareness may increase VERY rapidly if you don't perform properly.

If an individual is truly inclined towards spiritual awareness, then he wouldn't even be in a "redneck bar" to begin with, or any other bar for that matter--martial arts training or not.

Is that where you spend your time?

Some aikido works, some doesn't. Be sure to get the good shit. I'd choose a different martial art myself though and go with something more combative.

Why on earth would you give such advice to a spiritual aspirant?

In other words: "Fuck that spiritual shit; be like me, and be a brutal as you can be".......??

No wonder you use Christianity as your example.

I personally show my enemies love by making sure to put them to sleep as opposed to crushing their throats. Or I just dont fight them in the first place. The whole peaceful thing has no place in a fight really.

And yet again, you make it painfully evident that you know little of spirituality, nor the origins of martial arts therein.

Once again, the origin of AIKIDO in particular is based solely in spirituality.

Here is the history of the art (not some crazed Devil looking to start his own version of "FIGHT CLUB"):

www.aikidofaq.com/history/index.html

Aikido development and history
Aikido's founder, Morihei Ueshiba, was born in Japan on December 14, 1883. As a boy, he often saw local thugs beat up his father for political reasons. He set out to make himself strong so that he could take revenge. He devoted himself to hard physical conditioning and eventually to the practice of martial arts, receiving certificates of mastery in several styles of jujitsu, fencing, and spear fighting. In spite of his impressive physical and martial capabilities, however, he felt very dissatisfied. He began delving into religions in hopes of finding a deeper significance to life, all the while continuing to pursue his studies of budo, or the martial arts. By combining his martial training with his religious and political ideologies, he created the modern martial art of Aikido. Ueshiba decided on the name "Aikido" in 1942 (before that he called his martial art "aikibudo" and "aikinomichi").

On the religious side, Ueshiba was a devotee of one of Japan's so-called "new religions," Omotokyo. Omotokyo was (and is) part neo-shintoism, and part socio-political idealism. One goal of omotokyo has been the unification of all humanity in a single "heavenly kingdom on earth" where all religions would be united under the banner of omotokyo. It is impossible sufficiently to understand many of O Sensei's writings and sayings without keeping the influence of Omotokyo firmly in mind.

Despite what many people think or claim, there is no unified philosophy of Aikido. What there is, instead, is a disorganized and only partially coherent collection of religious, ethical, and metaphysical beliefs which are only more or less shared by Aikidoists, and which are either transmitted by word of mouth or found in scattered publications about Aikido.

Some examples: "Aikido is not a way to fight with or defeat enemies; it is a way to reconcile the world and make all human beings one family." "The essence of Aikido is the cultivation of ki ." "The secret of Aikido is to become one with the universe." "Aikido is primarily a way to achieve physical and psychological self- mastery." "The body is the concrete unification of the physical and spiritual created by the universe." And so forth.

At the core of almost all philosophical interpretations of Aikido, however, we may identify at least two fundamental threads: (1) A commitment to peaceful resolution of conflict whenever possible. (2) A commitment to self-improvement through Aikido training.

Funny: I didn't see anything about "snapping arms and shit", nor men in "angry pajamas" anywhere in this exerpt.

I know whose word I'm going to take.

PEACE

[Os3y3ris]

Surely you jest, yes?

Brazilian Jui-Jitsu is one of the most brutal arts on the face of the planet.

Where'd you hear that? Jiujitsu is about patience. Lets use my gameplan as an example. Now, I'm tweaking it tonight, but I'll give you my current game. I'll comment in the next post so this one isnt mad long.

I. Guard (bottom)
-1. Overhook series
--A. Collar choke
--B. Triangle choke
-2. Scissor series
--A. Triangle choke
--B. Scissor sweep
--C. Push sweep
-3. Mount
--A. Collar choke
--B. Amrbar

II. Guard (top)
-1. Chest/hip guard break
--A. Knee cut across
-2. THEY open guard
--A. Shut legs down
--B. Double underhooks
--C. Stand up
-3. Standing in open guard
--A. 1/2 step
--B. Knee cut across
-4. Side mount
--A. Keylock
--B. Kimura *can step across head
--C. Straight armbar
--D. Hidden mount entry
-5. North/South
--A. Tommy gun
--B. Armbar
-6. Knee on belly
--A. Baseball choke
--B. Armbar
--C. Take mount

III. Standing in closed guard (bottom)
-1. Break grips
--A. Armdrag
--B. 3 on 1 sweep

IV. Cracking turtles
-1. Take back
--A. Spin
--B. 1/4 nelson
--C. Cricufix
-2. Rear mount
--A. Various naked and gi chokes

[SAMURAI36]

How does patience circumvent brutality?

Everything you mentioned above is the epitome of brutality:

--A. Collar choke
--B. Triangle choke

--A. Triangle choke
--A. Collar choke


-1. Chest/hip guard break
--B. Kimura *can step across head-6. Knee on belly
--A. Baseball choke



-1. Break grips
--A. Armdrag


IV. Cracking turtles
--B. 1/4 nelson
--C. Cricufix

--A. Various naked and gi chokes

This is not brutal to you?

Granted, I have not stated that there is no place for brutality, just that this is not what CIVIL may be looking to learn.

Look at where he placed this thread: In the Spiritual section.

If he was concerned with breaking arms and what-not, don't you think he would have posted this somewhere else on the board? Or even on one of your sites, perhaps?

That's all I'm sayin'.

PEACE

[Os3y3ris]

Lets look at section I,1. The overhook series is hardly brutal. I overhook one arm, pinning it against me and I grab with the same arm my own gi. This keeps the controlled without much strength. From there, I simply weave my leg inside and strangle them with it. Now, THEY might resort to brutality and violence, but all I do is keep a cool head and keep the choke on regardless of what type of damage I'm taking. I'm relaxed, I'm adjusing for proper technique and I'm very patient. They want to slam me, I'm still relaxed, adjusting just a tad more. Might stop the slam, might not, but it doesn't matter. I'm relaxing, waiting for them to run out of oxygen.

But lets say they stop that. Some styles would have you scramble when you fuck a move up. Not so in jiujitsu. You stop my triangle, I'm switching to the scissor series. I break their balance, roll them over and once again, I relax. I have infinite patience. I take my side control, but I'm not rushing. I control their head, apply some pressure, control their hips and just relax. Once they've settled down, I work my way into mount. Here, I kinda cook them. I ride real low, letting my body heat suffocate them. I kinda drape my gi over their face and just wait a minute.

Point is, jiujitsu is a slow, technical game. There's no brutality there. Its about patience. Just like in chess, you don't finish things immediately. You don't sit there and automatically go for an all or nothing submission. You move your pieces into position, maybe try a little something, and move some more. You're ever improving your position until it gets to the point where they want to surrender out of fear alone. Eventually, when its so hot, so suffocating, so claustrophobic and so desperate that they see no escape, you take them out. But even then, its a matter of patience. You don't expect instant results.

Anyways, on to aikido.

[Os3y3ris]

Are you truly under the impression that this is ALL that AIKIDO (or any internal art, for that matter) is about?

Thats what they spend their time doing.

Why does the practice of any art have to result in broken body parts?

It doen't. It shouldnt actually. Not in practice anyways.

Wasn't there a wise martial artist from way back, that stated that "the greatest fights are those which are never fought"?

I'm sure you don't agree with that philosophy, but there are those that do, especially within traditional AIKIDO.

Aikidoka spend more time throwing people than wind sprinting and talking people down. Its a fighting art.

No where within ANY art, is it stated that just because you learn this technique, that you MUST use it, or find instances where it must be used.

If you go into an aikido school, how many hours a week do you think are spent on violence as opposed to instruction in nonviolent conflict resolution? Ever seen them put on a demo where the instructer expertly talks down his attackers? They revel in violence. Thats how they profit.

[In fact, most Sensei's, if they have half a brain, will teach their students to look for peaceful means of resolving conflicts.

As they should.

I asked you in the past, why TKD had I-CHING iconograms serving as symbology for the art.......I don't think that you really had an answer, but I've never known you to have actually done the knowledge on I-CHING.

Why is the taegeuk the symbol for the art? First of all, its not. Its the symbol of the taegeuk poomse. The reason being is that its the basis for the forms. The taegeuk is NOT the basis of kukkitaekwondo as a whole however, as Kukkiwon has gone off and lost their heads.

Monks in Asia LOTUS FIST, while dancing on I-CHING hexes in the temples.

Surely you don't believe that this is merely happenstance?

I think it has to do with the facts that they're monks. Monks do shit like that. Thats why they're monks in the first place. They're there to engage in spiritual studies so of course all that they do will reflect that.

Given the fact that you seem to be confusing Spirituality with Religion, please show and prove where you can in fact learn "that stuff" (your irreverence is appauling) in this society without cost.

No, I'm not confusing spirituality and religion. They're not the sme, but they're fairly closely related. As for where you can learn various spiritual forms, I see spiritual temples all over the place. Do buddhists charge admission now?

You mentioned Christianity (for the life of me, though, I'm not sure why; why wouldn't Buddhism have been a better example?); try going to a Church for more than a month, and see if you don't get approached by the clergy, for the urging of starting to "pay tithes".

I used Christianity because I have first hand experience with it. While they ask that you pay, its not mandatory and you can freeload to your hearts content as long as the church can cover costs.

Besides, there are people who are willing to train students for next to nothing, both here and abroad. There are traveling monks who pick people out, to keep the Spirit (<==emphasis) of their art alive, asking that the only payment be that they pass it on.

Don't know about the monk thing, but yes, you can get "free" training. Most gyms offer it to at least one person.

#1) I doubt that's what CIVIL wants from this or any art. And the learning of such techniques are purely subsequent to his primary goals.

Then why take an art where he does practice arm breaks all day.

#2) That's not what Traditional Aikido practicioners have to say about their own art and style

So? You don't practice breaking arms all day if you don't care about breaking arms. Imagine seeing someone with an m16 shooting all day and running urban warfare drills. Only thing to think is that he's about that war.

It's really sad that you would opt to take the word of a Savage about his myopic perspectives about a culture that he didn't (nor couldn't) understand, over those civilized people who created the culture to begin with.

The Japanese are civilized? They're as bad as the English. Regardless, thats not the point. The reason why this guy's opinion is worth something is because while he may sensationalize what went down, he has no real dog in the fight. The japanese wanna get paid. So does he, but if he writes up pure bullshit, he'll get called on it. The majority of martial arts figures though, thrive on bullshit. To think of a notable Japanese figure who stretched the truth a tad, look at Oyama. Hmm...

If an individual is truly inclined towards spiritual awareness, then he wouldn't even be in a "redneck bar" to begin with, or any other bar for that matter--martial arts training or not.

Is that where you spend your time?

Nope. Thats not the point though. Point is, shit jumps off all over the place. If you want self defense, learn it right. If you want spirituality, learn that. Dont half ass them both.

What there is, instead, is a disorganized and only partially coherent collection of religious, ethical, and metaphysical beliefs which are only more or less shared by Aikidoists, and which are either transmitted by word of mouth or found in scattered publications about Aikido.

You want your spirituality from THAT?

Funny: I didn't see anything about "snapping arms and shit", nor men in "angry pajamas" anywhere in this exerpt.

Odd, because thats what they spend their time actually doing.

[Os3y3ris]

Let me comment regarding the various brutality levels in the martial arts. Tai chi techniques are designed to hurt people. Period. So are aikido techniques. In real life, no one flips like that. Their arms and wrists get fucked up instead because they probably weren't expecting it. And then, should they be thrown, they're not gonna break fall, they have no mats and they may try to catch themselves. Then they've not only lost one arm, but they're gonna break the other trying to save themselves. Thats pretty brutal. Jiujitsu, if we don't break their arms or whatever, we simply put them to sleep. They wake up a few seconds later absolutely unharmed.

[CIVILISON]

WOW!

This thread is turning out to be pretty good.

First of all, I must say that I was inspired by Morihei Ueshiba’s (the founder of Aikido) book called the Art of Peace.

Aikido seems to be a UNIVERSAL life science, not a martial art. Morihei explains that true Aikido has no preconceived form as it comes from the core of being which is formless itself.

According to him, Aikido is the expression of our inner self and like the OLDER GOD was saying it is a unification of mind and body. Allow me to quote a few of Morihei’s teaching:

* The Art of Peace (Aikido) functions everywhere on Earth, in realms ranging from the vastness of space down to the tiniest plants and animals. The life force is all pervasive and its strength boundless. The Art of Peace allows us to perceive and tap into that tremendous reserve of universal energy.

* To practice the Art of Peace, you must:
- Calm the spirit and return to the source
- Cleanse the body and spirit by removing all malice, selfishness and desire
- Be ever grateful for the gifts received from the universe, your family, Mother Nature
and your fellow human beings

* The Art of Peace is not an object that anyone possesses, nor is it something you can give to another. You must understand the Art of Peace from within, and express it in your own words.

Therefore, I am mesmerized by the notion of practicing a martial art that will benefit my spiritual evolution. Aikido seems to do just that.

NOW… (and this is important)…

I also understand that some people might temper with this science and concentrate on its physical rather than spiritual aspect. I don’t doubt that there are teachers that do this.

On the other hand (like Shah was saying) there are monks that walk around looking for sincere students.

Aikido seems to click with what I want to achieve in life. Studying a martial art will be a way for me to express my self in the purest way possible.

The ability to express and create is a gift we share with the Creator Itself!

Add on, I am loving this conversation.

Peace to you both!

[SAMURAI36]

os3y3ris said:

Thats what they spend their time doing.

That's not what they spend ALL their time doing. That's like saying all traditional MUAY THAI fighters spend their time doing, is sparring, and breaking bamboo with their knees and elbows.

I can tell you for certain, that nothing could be further from the truth.

In Thailand, nearly all traditional Thai fighters are devout Buddhists.

What do you think the RAM MUAY and all the ceremony is all about?

Same thing applies to AIKIDO.

You pretend as if I didn't post all that spiritual info about this art, or you are just choosing to ignore it. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exsist.

AIKIDO is a very spiritual art. Dare I say, even more than MUAY THAI.

It doen't. It shouldnt actually. Not in practice anyways.

If by "practice", you mean in training, then you're right. But neither in applicable life either.

Aikidoka spend more time throwing people than wind sprinting and talking people down. Its a fighting art.

A "fighting art", as opposed to what art that's not?

However, that's not correct anyways.

Aikido is a defensive art, not a combative one.

If you go into an aikido school, how many hours a week do you think are spent on violence as opposed to instruction in nonviolent conflict resolution?

Since I've sat in on an AIKIDO (a traditional one, not this western non-sense) class, I can say with certainty, that it's a balanced mix.

Class begins with a ceremonial meditation moment, and the physical training/sparring, and ends with discussion.

Much like what takes place in a Hindu or Buddhist temple--go figure.

Ever seen them put on a demo where the instructer expertly talks down his attackers? They revel in violence. Thats how they profit.

You sound like that crazy Devil that wrote that ANGRY PAJAMAS book.

There is not a single traditional martial artist that "revels in violence". Also, Traditional schools are not looking to "profit" in the western sense.

You continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding of the martial arts world.

As they should.

This totally contradicts your previous 2 statements then.

How does a man who "revels in violence" instruct others to refrain from it?

Why is the taegeuk the symbol for the art? First of all, its not. Its the symbol of the taegeuk poomse. The reason being is that its the basis for the forms.

I don't see how what you just stated refutes in any way what I said.

The I-CHING is the basis for the POOMSE, the POOMSE are what comprise the art of TKD.

I-CHING is spirituality. Thus even TKD is based on spirituality.

The taegeuk is NOT the basis of kukkitaekwondo as a whole however, as Kukkiwon has gone off and lost their heads.

Ironically, that sounds not dissimilar from what I'm hearing from you.

They've lost site of the spiritual aspects of martial arts, and here you remain oblivious to it as well.

Besides, the KUKKIWON are more or less western. You do know the difference, or at least how to recognize a western school or "federation", from a traditional school or Clan, yes?

I think it has to do with the facts that they're monks. Monks do shit like that. Thats why they're monks in the first place. They're there to engage in spiritual studies so of course all that they do will reflect that.

You act as if you have to be a MONK to be spiritual.

Am I a monk?

You continuously attempt to casually dismiss spirituality, as it applies to martial arts, while ignoring the blatantly overwhelming evidence indicating otherwise.

C'mon man, I know you're smarter than that.

These monks do what they do, because they were the ones that created these various arts to begin with.

No, I'm not confusing spirituality and religion. They're not the sme, but they're fairly closely related. As for where you can learn various spiritual forms, I see spiritual temples all over the place. Do buddhists charge admission now?

No they don't, but that wasn't your example from before, and therefore it's not appropriate for you to use it now.

You said Christianity. And that RELIGION (re: not spiritual) " revels in violence and makes a profit", as you previously stated.

I used Christianity because I have first hand experience with it. While they ask that you pay, its not mandatory and you can freeload to your hearts content as long as the church can cover costs.

That will only be the case for only so long, before you are asked to join a specific church. And believe me, as my father is a Deacon, becoming a church member means PAYING MONEY.

Don't know about the monk thing, but yes, you can get "free" training. Most gyms offer it to at least one person.

Precisely. You really should do more research on traditionalism within the martial world.

Traditionalists really despise that whole "store front karate class, with the trophies in the window, that White Soccer Moms drop their bad-ass kids off at on Wednesday nights while mom and dad go get high on coke, so that the kids can play POWER-RANGER" epidemic that has cropped up here in the West.

Then why take an art where he does practice arm breaks all day.

As opposed to........What? What art does not have even a modicum of violence?

Once again, you totally missed my point. Just because you learn to do these things, doesn't mean that you need to look for every opportunity to do them.

In addition to learning to do these things, any traditional school worth the title also teaches the meanings behind doing them as well.

Otherwise, why take an art where he wears a funny little hat on his head, and is made to dance and pray in the middle of the ring to drums?

I don't go around doing the RAM MUAY all day either, so aaccording to your "logic", why even bother learning it?

So? You don't practice breaking arms all day if you don't care about breaking arms.

"All day"? Go back and re-read my experience in an AIKIDO dojo.

Imagine seeing someone with an m16 shooting all day and running urban warfare drills. Only thing to think is that he's about that war.

Just because you see pics of BIN LADEN and his followers with M-16's and RPG's does that mean that that's all they were all about?

They are devout Muslims, you know. Just because western media only depicts one biased side to him, does'nt mean that he doesn't spend considerable time praying, reading the QUR'AN, etc.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist--especially when you're not looking for it, and all the more when you are trying to remain totally oblivious to it.

The Japanese are civilized? They're as bad as the English. Regardless, thats not the point.

True it's not, but you apparently haven't been to Japan then. Granted I haven't either, but every single person who speaks of a Japanese (and Asian in general) social experience, says that they are perhaps the most civilized people walking the planet right now.

Do you take your shoes off everytime you enter the house? Do the English?

To compare them to the English is a travesty, even despite that whole Japanese occupation issue, which I know you're talking about.

ICHI the KILLAH is not by far a representation of Japanese culture. And neither is WWII.

Incidently, what is your definition for being "civilized"? And what peoples, in your knowledge, fits that definition--be it past or present?

The reason why this guy's opinion is worth something is because while he may sensationalize what went down, he has no real dog in the fight.

I'm still looking for his credibility here. Besides, why is his perspective superlative to that of the man who created AIKIDO to begin with?

Once again, you completely ignored that, in favor of holding fast to your westernalization.

The japanese wanna get paid.

This is a blanketed statement, and I'm not even sure what it has to do with my preceding one.

I'm sure the creator of the SONY corporation--being Japanese-- wants to get paid. So what?

Otherwise, can you show that all traditional schools, both in the west and in the east are "getting paid" (as that term is meant in the western sense) from teaching arts in the traditional fashion?

Was the founder of AIKIDO "paid"?

So does he, but if he writes up pure bullshit, he'll get called on it.

By who? And if he doesn't, does that justify the bullshit?

Plenty of people in this world perpetuate bullshit, and don't get called on it.

Look at Christianity, for instance.

The majority of martial arts figures though, thrive on bullshit.

Who, the westernized ones? Do the Monks in Tibet "thrive on bullshit" as well?

To think of a notable Japanese figure who stretched the truth a tad, look at Oyama. Hmm...

Could you give more info?

Nope. Thats not the point though. Point is, shit jumps off all over the place. If you want self defense, learn it right. If you want spirituality, learn that. Dont half ass them both.

OK, I agree with that. You should learn as best as is capable, both aspects. Especially when both aspects come from the same source.

What's your excuse then, for refusing to learn spirituality from martial arts, when it's clearly conveyed therein?

You want your spirituality from THAT?

If you have to ask this, then it continually remains clear that you don't know what spirituality is to begin with.

I want spirituality from ALL THINGS, because ALL THINGS originate in spirituality.

Odd, because thats what they spend their time actually doing.

See my previous response(s) to this sentiment earlier in this post.

PEACE

[Os3y3ris]

That's not what they spend ALL their time doing. That's like saying all traditional MUAY THAI fighters spend their time doing, is sparring, and breaking bamboo with their knees and elbows

Thats true, but they sure do spend a lot of time at it. Aikidoka that is.

What do you think the RAM MUAY and all the ceremony is all about?

I'm aware of what it means along with other rituals.

You pretend as if I didn't post all that spiritual info about this art, or you are just choosing to ignore it. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exsist.

AIKIDO is a very spiritual art. Dare I say, even more than MUAY THAI.

This is true, yet the spirituality could not possible stand alone. Its rather threadbare. Without the style there would be nothing there.

If by "practice", you mean in training, then you're right. But neither in applicable life either.

I'm not an asshole and I try not to fight, but if someone REALLY comes with it, breaking their limbs is acceptable to me. Only consideration they get is that they'll sleep instead of die when I strangle them, and given the track record of strangle holds and accidental killing, thats plenty of mercy.

A "fighting art", as opposed to what art that's not?

However, that's not correct anyways.

Aikido is a defensive art, not a combative one.

Technically, yes. I agree with this distinction and should've made it myself.

Since I've sat in on an AIKIDO (a traditional one, not this western non-sense) class, I can say with certainty, that it's a balanced mix.

Class begins with a ceremonial meditation moment, and the physical training/sparring, and ends with discussion.

Much like what takes place in a Hindu or Buddhist temple--go figure.

I've seen otherwise.

There is not a single traditional martial artist that "revels in violence". Also, Traditional schools are not looking to "profit" in the western sense.

Muay thai is a traditional martial art.

This totally contradicts your previous 2 statements then.

How does a man who "revels in violence" instruct others to refrain from it?

You organize and control it to various degrees.

The I-CHING is the basis for the POOMSE, the POOMSE are what comprise the art of TKD.

Incorrect. The taeguek and the applied art are two seperate entities.

Besides, the KUKKIWON are more or less western. You do know the difference, or at least how to recognize a western school or "federation", from a traditional school or Clan, yes?

Do you know how to even recognize a traditional art? Niether aikido nor taekwondo qualify. They're both FAR younger than the old styles. And guess what? They're both younger than Brazilian jiujitsu. So really, playing that angle is pointless. Kukkiwon is what it is.

You act as if you have to be a MONK to be spiritual.

Never said that. Merely pointing out that most monks are spiritual, martial artists or not.

That will only be the case for only so long, before you are asked to join a specific church. And believe me, as my father is a Deacon, becoming a church member means PAYING MONEY.

My father is a deacon as well, my grandfather a pastor. Yes, they urge people to pay. They do rely on it. HOWEVER, its not compulsary.

Traditionalists really despise that whole "store front karate class, with the trophies in the window, that White Soccer Moms drop their bad-ass kids off at on Wednesday nights while mom and dad go get high on coke, so that the kids can play POWER-RANGER" epidemic that has cropped up here in the West.

As do many modern martial artists.

As opposed to........What? What art does not have even a modicum of violence?

There are plenty arts that don't. They of course aren't martial arts, but they CAN help you with your spiritual needs without the violence.

Otherwise, why take an art where he wears a funny little hat on his head, and is made to dance and pray in the middle of the ring to drums?

LOL

I don't go around doing the RAM MUAY all day either, so aaccording to your "logic", why even bother learning it?

But you do use it if you fight. Thats what its for.

Just because you see pics of BIN LADEN and his followers with M-16's and RPG's does that mean that that's all they were all about?

But it is a large part of who they are. So to apply that to aikido, you can conclude that they're in no small part about bone breaking.

They are devout Muslims, you know. Just because western media only depicts one biased side to him, does'nt mean that he doesn't spend considerable time praying, reading the QUR'AN, etc.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exsist--especially when you're not looking for it, and all the more when you are trying to remain totally oblivious to it.

Fair enough.

True it's not, but you apparently haven't been to Japan then. Granted I haven't either, but every single person who speaks of a Japanese (and Asian in general) social experience, says that they are perhaps the most civilized people walking the planet right now.

Socially, sure. My friend just got back from there.

Do you take your shoes off everytime you enter the house? Do the English?

Who cares? I do so out of respect when its required, but otherwise I use my discretion.

To compare them to the English is a travesty, even despite that whole Japanese occupation issue, which I know you're talking about.

"That whole occupation issue"? Before and during WW2, they took over China, Korea, Taiwan, Manchuria and the Filipines. To simplify that, damn near everyone in range. They practiced swordplay on Chinese civilians. They sided with ADOLF HITLER. They had some serious, serious problems.

ICHI the KILLAH is not by far a representation of Japanese culture. And neither is WWII.

Lets look at some of their major cultural exports then. You wanna start with Yaoi or Loli? Ok, ok, lets skip that and go to the more mainstream stuff. Never mind that it can be picked up in any Japanese bookstore. Tentacle porn anyone? Ok, ok, never mind that you can buy it in many major stores. Still not representative. How about Berserk? Or Hellsing? Pretty major series. Make good money. Available in blockbuster. I think the female lead in Berserk was raped or sexually assaulted two or three times in less than 30 episodes. And thats the watered down version. Note that its also complete with both of the main male characters getting raped and/or selling their services to other males. This was shown on Japanese TV by the way. Hellsing is a fairly interesting series. Have you seen the first drafts? Slutty nuns being graphically assraped while a psychotic priest comes to the rescue and then fucks them both. Charming. But no, that doesn't reflect on the Japanese. Lets look at some of their bigger films. Battle Royale? Hmm...Moving right along, we have their kids entertainment. I suppose we should also ignore the pedophile themes there?

Incidently, what is your definition for being "civilized"? And what peoples, in your knowledge, fits that definition--be it past or present?

I don't think any culture has been truely civilized. I think groups within cultures are.

I'm still looking for his credibility here. Besides, why is his perspective superlative to that of the man who created AIKIDO to begin with?

His perspective is a modern one. O-sensei is dead. This is 2005.

Otherwise, can you show that all traditional schools, both in the west and in the east are "getting paid" (as that term is meant in the western sense) from teaching arts in the traditional fashion?

I can show you that many are. Shaolin for example.

Who, the westernized ones? Do the Monks in Tibet "thrive on bullshit" as well?

Shaolin is a HUGE example.

Could you give more info?

The bull killing incident is stretching the truth. It happened and its impressive, but technically they were oxen. Then theres other allegations that are unconfirmed. Some students claim that he was Yakuza.

OK, I agree with that. You should learn as best as is capable, both aspects. Especially when both aspects come from the same source.

Then why should he not do as I suggested and learn the toughest aikido?

What's your excuse then, for refusing to learn spirituality from martial arts, when it's clearly conveyed therein?

With the exception of muay thai, I dont do and have never done traditional martial arts.

[Os3y3ris]

Anyways, as for Civil, do what you want. Just be sure it IS what you want and don't be afraid to demand your money's worth from ANY aspect. If they tell you you can physically defeat anyone and everyone who comes your way, they need to be training you to do so. If they claim that they can help you pull off a really chill self immolation, the same goes. Every aspect, get what you came for. Thats the bottom line as far as the martial arts goes. You can get a lot from it, but a lot of people make promises that they can't teach.

[CIVILISON]

True indeed, O!

Thanks for all the info!

PEACE