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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 16, 2005 20:38:16 GMT -5
Peace,
Although it would be very hard to reenact what me and LIGHT did in the “what the thinker thinks, the prover proves” discussion, I would like to add on with this build as an addendum to the recent build.
We discussed the imaginative faculty and the intellect yet we didn’t go over man’s free will, which is obviously interconnected with the before mentioned.
Our free will is what differentiates man from all other creatures on the planet. In the Kemetic culture, it is said that there exists man’s will and the will of God. The purpose of life is to bring them together. The reason? I won’t get into it until there is some input from others.
What are your thoughts?
PEACE
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Post by Healthy Merking on Jun 17, 2005 13:44:25 GMT -5
PEACE
free will - from what i have come to understand
is nothing more than the ability to make choices
the study of 'choice-making' is detailed in the field of economics:
every time a man makes a choice
he measures benefit (of making the choice) vs. cost (the alternative 'choices')
of course
as a man's awareness develops
the benefits and costs will change accordingly as a person's outlook changes
the field of economics does not usually discuss god's will
so when you bring god's will into the equation
it becomes painfully clear that a man who is making choices contrary to god's will is under the impression that he can control his universe
eventually a man learns that he cannot proceed contrary to god's will
(the purpose of life as you mentioned)
and he makes his last choice:
to strive to become more and more in tune with god's will
and to follow what he learns instead of making his own knucklehead choices
this is known as 'death'
you can look at it as physical death or simply ego death
this is a deep topic
PEACE
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Post by Subtle Energies on Jun 18, 2005 3:45:03 GMT -5
I have thought alot about free-will in relation to an omnipotent God. The apparent contradiction of Him giving us free-will us having the power to choose puzzled me since God is ALL powerful. Yet, to say this contradiction is beyond the scope of His power would also take away from His omnipotence. The thing that gets me though is He gives us the power to choose but does He already know what we are going to choose?
I read that when someone sincerely asks God for forgiveness they are already forgiven for it is God who compelled them to this sincere supplication.
Another thing that complicates my understanding of the matter is time. Modern Physics has, it seems, shown that time, like space, is a dimension. Time is not necessarily the same for all objects (this itself is freaky to me) but, rather, is relative to the speed at which they are travelling. The faster an object moves the slower time passes for this object. This means that if I was travelling at high speeds someone at lower speeds would actually pass through time at a faster rate than me. Now the relevant implications of this to free will is this means that someone (or something) can reach a point in time before I do. This means that time is like space in the regard that just because I am not in a particular area of time does NOT mean that that particular part of time is not already in existence and being experience by other objects. Now to me this brings to mind what Ghost is saying at the start of Black Jesus on IRONMAN:
Everything you see always has been and always will - what? Be
Is this the case? And if so do I really have a choice...or is it "Muktab" - it's written.
Another thing that makes me question my free will is an assignment I did on Elliot waves. These were initially used to study the movements of stocks but were later found to characterise all human behaviour. Is it free-will or just Fibonacci sequence? :s
Alot of the type my WILL is also not actually what I DO. There are times I honestly feel I can't do things I want to do. Things like fatigue may not allow me.....yet to an extent I can control this...the control isn't physical...nor is it mental since alot of the time I suffer procrastination as a result of fatigue. So this is where my investigation ends in confusion, trying to determine WHO is doing the choosing. A spirit? Soul? I have no idea........
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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 21, 2005 11:31:25 GMT -5
To discuss free will, we must delve into the foundation of it, the very purpose of its being.
Basically, the Creator forms the world and everything in it yet exists independent yet connected to it. The Creator had to find a way to ENTER the world and experience Its creation. You can say it is like buying a new car (creating the world) but never actually driving it (experiencing it). We must learn how to drive in order to actualize the purpose of the vehicle.
My point it, the creator needed direct, physical experience of the world It created. The Creator then creates Man as the vehicle and carrier of God’s consciousness.
Now, it is said that Man was created in God’s image. A lot of people take this for granted but this is very important. If God did create Man in Its image then Man shares in its attributes of Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience and of course Free Will. It would be a great contradiction if God created Man in Its image and not provide him/her with Its free will. Ultimately, man must reflect the qualities of God.
Evidently, man is the only unit on the planet that has the potential of realizing the fullness of God’s being because Man is not limited in any way (we posses free will just as God). So Man is the only vehicle in which the Creator can experience Its being and Its creation to the fullest.
This is a tough job we must do!
Therefore, free will is an essential aspect of our being. A power that we share with the Divine. A power that we can use to bring forth the Divine into the foreground of our life.
Also, in early parts of evolution the will is usually controlled by emotional stimuli. Meaning, we seek emotional pleasure and gratification and the will is enslaved to carry out the acts that the BODY craves.
The economic benefit that LIGHT talked about is like the emotion (usually at the expense of our well-being) that we want to pursue and because of free will we do it.
It is tough to align the will with the universal order – ma’at.
Add on…
In Peace
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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 21, 2005 11:34:16 GMT -5
Subtle, do you believe that everything is predetermined then? If that is the case then whole purpose of our free will is baseless.
How does ‘cause and effect’ fit into this equation?
We can delve into this if you want.
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Post by SAMURAI36 on Jun 21, 2005 12:14:27 GMT -5
Subtle, do you believe that everything is predetermined then? If that is the case then whole purpose of our free will is baseless. How does ‘cause and effect’ fit into this equation? We can delve into this if you want. First, allow me to say that I am very much impressed with the level of critical analysis taking place here in this discussion. Even though CIVIL's question was not posed to me, I would nonetheless like to add-on with my perspective: I support the notion that all things are "predetermined", just not in the linnear aspect that we have come to accept this notion. We must remember that exsistence does not occur in/on a straight line, but rather expansively, much like the ripples in a pool of water--moving outward in all directions simultaneously. We've all seen the images called "SACRED GEOMETRY", yes? Thus, it's important also to see Mathematics as a circle/cycle, instead of a trail of numbers adding-on into Infinity. Eventually, all things will pass through a Mathematical Matrix of sorts; meaning, every mathematical equation possible will eventually be figured on and unlocked on a Universal/Divine, Infinite/Eternal level........ And then at some point after, it will all return to the ZERO. You are all in some form or fashion disciples of BUDDHISM, ZEN, and/or Kemetian Theologies (if not both), and thus we have learned that the Subjective Realm is one in which any and all things occur at the same time, without such a simultaneous occurence disrupting the Balance and Harmony of the ONE (or ZERO, perspective pending). However, it is here in the Objective realm where sense is to be made of it all, and this must take place in the very realm in which the confines of such do more to stifle this discovery than aid it. I often wonder if the term "UNIVERSE" is even appropriate at all; would OMNIVERSE serve better as to describe this state of exsistence? I'm sure I've veered too far off from the topic at hand, and for that, you have my apologies.....I'm sure the CIVIL one can/will return us to the correct train of thought, if it is his Will. PEACE |
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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 21, 2005 12:35:59 GMT -5
WOW!
I'll add on in due time.
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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 21, 2005 17:17:29 GMT -5
PEACE and thank you for your very insightful input, SHAH!
Although I wasn’t going to say this until Subtle would respond, I do concur with the concept of predetermination in my own way.
I do believe that things in existence are predetermined to have their space, time and order. I do believe that this predetermination is the mathematical pattern that SHAH was talking about. In other words, all creation is predetermined to behave in an orderly manner. Mathematics underlie existence but everything has its source.
Same can be applied to humans, although on a different level. We are all “predetermined” to live a very specific life. I think life is a consciously coordinated set of events. Meaning, everything that happened and has happened to you happened for a very specific reason. In this way, we are predetermined to live through various scenarios and experiences which aim at our evolution. For those who are familiar with the Metu Neter, every one is predetermined to evolve and work on a particular sphere within a specific task like buying a house (for instance) or one’s whole lifetime. In this manner, our life is “predetermined”. However, the course of our action is solely up to us. We have the CHOICE to peacefully approach life’s difficulties (and gain wisdom from them) as well as the freedom to show complete disregard to them and label them as unnecessary and unwanted events.
The law of Cause and Effect fits perfectly into this because it is the determining factor in how our life will shape itself. Our action has an equal and corresponding reaction. Everything that we have and that happens to us is deserved and earned. Also, nothing is against us… nothing!
So……… I guess I am saying that there is a Divine Plan for all of us (which corresponds to the discussed predetermination) yet with our free will, we have the choice to bear witness to this Divine Plan or neglect it at the expense of our welfare.
I think this is how our free will fits within the boundaries of this Universe (or should I say Omniverse?). We have to keep in mind that existence is based on a universal symbiosis between all things. Free will has to correspond with the Divine Plan; otherwise it seems like that linear predetermination SHAH spoke about. A holistic approach is needed here (as with everything else, huh?).
Anyway, add on… I’m looking forward to the forthcoming inputs.
PEACE
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Post by Healthy Merking on Jun 22, 2005 6:58:04 GMT -5
PEACE and thank you for your very insightful input, SHAH! Although I wasn’t going to say this until Subtle would respond, I do concur with the concept of predetermination in my own way. I do believe that things in existence are predetermined to have their space, time and order. I do believe that this predetermination is the mathematical pattern that SHAH was talking about. In other words, all creation is predetermined to behave in an orderly manner. Mathematics underlie existence but everything has its source. Same can be applied to humans, although on a different level. We are all “predetermined” to live a very specific life. I think life is a consciously coordinated set of events. Meaning, everything that happened and has happened to you happened for a very specific reason. In this way, we are predetermined to live through various scenarios and experiences which aim at our evolution. For those who are familiar with the Metu Neter, every one is predetermined to evolve and work on a particular sphere within a specific task like buying a house (for instance) or one’s whole lifetime. In this manner, our life is “predetermined”. However, the course of our action is solely up to us. We have the CHOICE to peacefully approach life’s difficulties (and gain wisdom from them) as well as the freedom to show complete disregard to them and label them as unnecessary and unwanted events. The law of Cause and Effect fits perfectly into this because it is the determining factor in how our life will shape itself. Our action has an equal and corresponding reaction. Everything that we have and that happens to us is deserved and earned. Also, nothing is against us… nothing! So……… I guess I am saying that there is a Divine Plan for all of us (which corresponds to the discussed predetermination) yet with our free will, we have the choice to bear witness to this Divine Plan or neglect it at the expense of our welfare. I think this is how our free will fits within the boundaries of this Universe (or should I say Omniverse?). We have to keep in mind that existence is based on a universal symbiosis between all things. Free will has to correspond with the Divine Plan; otherwise it seems like that linear predetermination SHAH spoke about. A holistic approach is needed here (as with everything else, huh?). Anyway, add on… I’m looking forward to the forthcoming inputs. PEACE PEACE let me hit on a few points here: there is a difference between 'process' and 'content' -that being said - i have come to understand that the PROCESS is what is predetermined (the divine pattern) but the CONTENT or FORM that this takes before your eye is entirely up to you -everybody (every ego) experiences the same journey ('beginning' with 'birth' and 'ending' with allegiance to divine will) in that they LEARN the same KNOWLEDGE and gain the same UNDERSTANDING BUT the journey APPEARS different to every set of eyes and the order in which the lessons are learned will also vary also consider the implications of an INFINITE UNIVERSE - an infinite universe suggests the likelihood that there are also an INFINITE number of SUN-EARTH situations the same as ours - this also suggests that EVERY possible direction (content-wise) that your 'life' can take has and will occur - subscribing to this way of looking at things - every choice you make is actually your way of travelling to a completely different place (see the 'what the thinker thinks - the prover proves' thread for more info on this) - the reason why EVERY possible direction of your life occurs is because in ALL OF THEM - the end is exactly the SAME - adherance to divine will - the chain of events and order in which you learn things (in this sense) is of no importance - for example: the next decision you make - be it 'big' or 'small' will carry you to a certain place but within this infinite universe there is also the situation where you made the alternative decision and in both situations - though the content of your 'life' will be different - you will wind up in the same place summarizing the above in the terms that have been used: pre-determined - yes - in terms of the AS ABOVE SO BELOW process cause and effect - we are allowed to see the manifestation of our decisions (our FREE WILL) as they take us to different places for us to learn our lessons every potential course of your life within the limits of the divine pattern has and will take place you can visit which ever one you want to visit through the power of CHOICE - whether it be comfort poverty action or monotony however each of these will result in abondoning any attempt to 'control' and aligning with divine will PEACE ADD ON (another spine-tingling thread) |
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Post by CIVILISON on Jun 22, 2005 10:01:50 GMT -5
Let me start by reiterating the law of Ausar on the Kamitic Tree of Life:
'Your nature is an unconquerable peace, therefore nothing or no one in the world can be against you. All experiences come to you to promote your reclamation of peace, that you may in turn, acquire wisdom and power'
I think this law corresponds perfectly with what you stated, LIGHT.
I just love your analogy of the PROCESS and CONTENT, and on a level you reworded my thoughts.
In regards to your idea of the INFINITE UNIVERSE, I must say that you created another cart on my train of thought in respect to these discussed ideas. I did come across a theory like this while studying Quantum Physics but to tell you the truth I never paid much attention to it. The way you presented it has provided much more confidence in me though.
What I would like to add on with:
The universe is a school system. The curriculum (process) is the same for everyone – spiritual evolution. We all go through various phases and continuously ascend to higher “classes” but the material we choose to learn is up to us. I do agree with the fact that eventually, we will learn the ultimate lesson. The man that has all the money in the world is not all that different from the one who doesn’t. They all struggle on their path. The wealthy one is always stressed out and anxious about how he doesn’t want to loose his wealth yet the poor one is always stressed and anxious about how to feed his family.
So yes, what you said corresponds perfectly with my understanding.
Another thing is what do you think propels us into leading a life of “allegiance”? The Kemetic say (like stated in that before mentioned law) that it is the inner craving for peace. Through sensual gratification, we satisfy it on a temporary basis yet do not fulfill the ultimate purpose. I think back in the day we built on this for a while. I stated that essentially, humans are bio-energetic beings and the tension induced within causes us to seek “relieve” which is peace.
A thought that was sparked in my mind while contemplating this topic was that if everyone is “learning” the same “lesson”, then why sooooooo many people on this planet choose to neglect the Divine Plan? And although this almost worldwide negligence does guide these people lives’ into a direction of improvement, it seems like they don’t take the opportunity and, like I said before, heavily take the events in their life for granted.
I have this theory of mine and I am willing to share if you’re interested. Meanwhile, add on with your own thoughts.
How does reincarnation fit into this topic to you?
This build is looking lovely thus far!
PEACE
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Post by SAMURAI36 on Jun 22, 2005 12:06:03 GMT -5
Just to Add-On: PEACE -everybody (every ego) experiences the same journey ('beginning' with 'birth' and 'ending' with allegiance to divine will) in that they LEARN the same KNOWLEDGE and gain the same UNDERSTANDING BUT the journey APPEARS different to every set of eyes and the order in which the lessons are learned will also vary Yet another symptom of being confined within this Objective Realm of Differentiation. Whatever something IS, equals everything that it is NOT. Quite the opposite in the Subjective, Unified Realm, where whatever somethings IS, then all other things IS as well. This is why I say that "INFINITE UNIVERSE" = OMNIVERSE. I'm beginning to think that the term "UNIVERSE" in and of itself is almost an oxy-moron......But of course, far be it for me to share this with anyone, outside of those that I know feel a similar way about these things as I. This, to me, is the means of truly Ascending to the Spiritual; striving to see things as "GOD" sees it. You don't/can't ascend, until you percieve precisely what it means to ascend, and also percieve yourself as ascending. As always, perception is key. Man, I love it when seemingly diffused and divergent spiritual systems converge on such ultimate truths.  ZERO. Ya'll wanna know a lil' secret??  I think that the more you focus on the Divine, the less the whole concept of "FREE WILL" will be of any significance. What is GOD's alternative, other than to act upon a Will, other than His/Her own? Do you think that the Eternal would ask Him/Herself such a foolish question? Or even entertain the thought to begin with? So in all honesty, why do We (GOD = plural singularity)? With this, my above statement was just proven. PEACE |
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Post by Healthy Merking on Jun 22, 2005 14:13:26 GMT -5
In regards to your idea of the INFINITE UNIVERSE, I must say that you created another cart on my train of thought in respect to these discussed ideas. I did come across a theory like this while studying Quantum Physics but to tell you the truth I never paid much attention to it. The way you presented it has provided much more confidence in me though. PEACE it was a combination of the i ching, robert anton wilson's book 'schroedinger's cat' and heisenberg's principle of uncertainty which were dominant in my mind as i came to that understanding for me (my ego) personally it was fear which led me to allegiance for the last period of my 'ignorant' life i kept running myself face first into sticky situations and it got to the point where i found myself in a situation which terrified the shit out of me so i devoted my life to finding answers and abandoned all other persuits along the way i began to recognize that i had left 'choices' behind and began following the only thing that seemed to know what it was doing: allah please share your theory, CIVIL - i have a few thoughts of my own to be honest i have kind of stopped believing in death so reincarnation doesnt cross my mind all too often in a way i feel like i get reincarnated everytime i learn something new in a way i also feel i get reincarnated everytime i speak words which are understood by others or read words written by my a-alikes which i understand i guess i have come to find reincarnation to be synonymous with refinement 'death' seems more like an opportunity than anything else (hagakure: when faced with a decision - always make the quick choice of death) PEACE ADD ON |
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Post by Healthy Merking on Jun 22, 2005 14:20:32 GMT -5
Just to Add-On: PEACE -everybody (every ego) experiences the same journey ('beginning' with 'birth' and 'ending' with allegiance to divine will) in that they LEARN the same KNOWLEDGE and gain the same UNDERSTANDING BUT the journey APPEARS different to every set of eyes and the order in which the lessons are learned will also vary Yet another symptom of being confined within this Objective Realm of Differentiation. Whatever something IS, equals everything that it is NOT. Quite the opposite in the Subjective, Unified Realm, where whatever somethings IS, then all other things IS as well. This is why I say that "INFINITE UNIVERSE" = OMNIVERSE. I'm beginning to think that the term "UNIVERSE" in and of itself is almost an oxy-moron......But of course, far be it for me to share this with anyone, outside of those that I know feel a similar way about these things as I. This, to me, is the means of truly Ascending to the Spiritual; striving to see things as "GOD" sees it. You don't/can't ascend, until you percieve precisely what it means to ascend, and also percieve yourself as ascending. As always, perception is key. Man, I love it when seemingly diffused and divergent spiritual systems converge on such ultimate truths. ZERO. Ya'll wanna know a lil' secret?? I think that the more you focus on the Divine, the less the whole concept of "FREE WILL" will be of any significance. What is GOD's alternative, other than to act upon a Will, other than His/Her own? Do you think that the Eternal would ask Him/Herself such a foolish question? Or even entertain the thought to begin with? So in all honesty, why do We (GOD = plural singularity)? With this, my above statement was just proven. PEACE did i write all that? i dunno OG - even after ALLLLLLLLLLL this time i am still in sync with your verbage i'm down with the 'omniverse' theory i'm definitely down with your observations on ascension and i dig your point about free will being of little consequence i would almost go as far as to say that the ego is a big fan of the FREE WILL idea because the idea seems to present a playing field which it can CONTROL or DOMINATE... just a thought PEACE ADD ON |
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Post by Subtle Energies on Jun 22, 2005 19:11:33 GMT -5
See, I understand everything Civilison is saying, and in a way it makes alot of sense. But my problem with it is man being unlimited....? I can understand us possessing the same attributes as God, but in the same proportion? God is infinite....if you read the Bible or Koran on almost any page we read of our lack of power against this God.
Also, I also see free-will, to most people - for the present, to be a great burden. Most people wrong themselves and only the few that can master themselves ever really have any true control.
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Post by Subtle Energies on Jun 22, 2005 19:12:15 GMT -5
What's the sacred geometry?
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